SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'd like to acknowledge the Wandru Warong people as the traditional owners of the land where this recording was made. Over the past few months, I've been walking through reserves around Melbourne, NAM, and recording conversations along the way. I've met with traditional owners and First Nations peoples, conservationists, ecologists, and others who've chosen a place that matters to them. We walk and talk about nature, what lives there, what's changed, and what needs protected. You'll hear our footsteps, the wind in the trees, the birds overhead, and the city not too far away. This is Finding Melbourne's nature. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by the amazing urban ecologist Dr. Kylie Soames. We're standing on the banks of the Birong hearing all about the floating wetlands project that's bringing more biodiversity into our city. We're also going to be hearing about Kylie's journey into conservation and how we can all bring a bit more nature into our lives, no matter where you live.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

My name is Dr. Kylie Soames. I'm a researcher in urban ecology at the University of Melbourne, and we are currently in Melbourne CBD at the Docklands taking a stroll past the floating wetlands.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

That's so cool. And you've had a big role in these floating wetlands.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Yes, I was really lucky to be part of this project. So the City of Melbourne, the local council, had this huge ambition. They wanted to add green to a really great base in the river, and they wanted a little bit of help and advice to do it. They wanted to know how they could do it in a way that was not just green but provided good wildlife habitat, and we worked together to sort of come up with some design principles, some target species, and then it they managed to bring the whole thing to life, which has been honestly one of the most rewarding projects that I've been lucky enough to be part of because you go from an idea and having these ecological principles and the scientific understanding of species habitat, and then to actually see that put into a drawing and then come to life as a real piece of habitat is just a wonderful feeling. So floating wetlands have been used a lot in things like stormwater, retention ponds, all over the world. They're a great way of using vegetation to help clean up water, basically. And we noticed that animals like to cluster around them. And so the idea was well, can we do that on purpose in places where it's not just an accident that you get a whole bunch of ibis turning up on floating wetlands that are supposed to be cleaning water, but can you use this to add greenery back into a space that is really really grey and basically impenetrable? So you get city rivers like this, they're I mean we're about three metres above the water surface now, and it's just a vertical drop. You know, there's there's no riparian access for animals to get into the water, out of the water. There's absolutely nowhere that you could plant any kind of re-vegetation, you could pull out some of the weeds that are sprouting from the concrete, but that's about it. So a lot of our traditional approaches to restoration kind of go out the window here, and typically we'd write it off as a space where we can't do anything. So, how do you create brand new space? And that's where floating wetlands kind of come into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

And to give a visual context, we're sort of between library at the dock and Marvel Stadium.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

We're on a concrete promenade, there are apartments, like high-rise apartment buildings around us, and just like dozens and dozens of yachts. You can see Marvel Stadium over the back, like to get any kind of meaningful vegetation in here would mean taking some of these buildings down, and I don't think the residents will particularly appreciate that. Um, but the other benefit of that is you know you have all of these people living here with very little access to meaningful green space or native biodiversity, and by putting in these floating wetlands, it's created these sort of like these platforms basically for nature in city that people have started to notice. You know, they come to see the swans, they come to see all the water birds. There's a bench seat over there that people just sit and picnic. Um, every time I'm here to try and have a little sticky beak at what the swans are up to, someone will come up and be like, oh, aren't they great? These are our swans, and telling me all about it. Um, and that's something that took me by surprise is how great the local response would be, how much desire there was just to see that kind of stuff in their own backyard.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

And if if if we squint a bit and imagine, so Westgate Park's probably not too far as the as the swan flies.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

No, not at all.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

And do these serve as extensions or stepping stones for that greater habitat or do they have a connection at all?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, look, I think that is absolutely a long-term goal, like both to the larger wetland parks around here and then also further up the river. Yeah. If you could start stretching this really nice riparian habitat all the way up to sort of just enable animals to filter down and to give them that that resource. You know, something that you notice here as a waterway habitat, you know, there's not a lot of emergent vegetation for foraging or for refuge or for nesting. There's not a lot of flat surfaces for basking for things like turtles and ricali. And they're the kinds of resources that we're trying to put back into this landscape. And as you add more and more, you can kind of bring these stepping stones so that we're actually bleeding the edges of those parks and those nice natural reserves and just helping it filter its way all across the urban landscape. And I mean that's my goal with everything, right? Is that we have less delineation between this is a natural reserve area for nature and this is where the people are. It's like, can we just blur that all together so that everybody benefits?

SPEAKER_02 6:25

So it's a hopeful story. It is a chance.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

It is a hope. There is absolutely a chance. Like my dream would be to have uh kingfishes perching on these floating wetlands. That's like that's one of the absolute goals. I even put it in the um original scoping document to the city of Melbourne, like the idea of if we add these perches, then birds that like to sit and hunt and prey in shallower waters. We'll have some way to do that because again, looking around us, there's not really anything branch-like for a little perching bird to get their to get their feet around, and that's why there are some of those on the floating wetlands, these smaller perches for foraging birds, and that would be the dream is that one day kingfishes are just sitting themselves up on these perches and diving into the into the water.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

It's so good to think that it can coexist with industry next door, housing, you know, there's everything around here.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah, it's such a busy space, and even thinking about where we could put these floating wetlands was a huge eye-opener because, you know, they asked me for my advice about ecologically what was best, but at the end of the day, so many other things had to come into consideration. There are underwater services and pipes and sewage outflows and storm drains, there's turning areas for boats that need to be kept safe. There's just so much activity going on under the surface of the water as well. So at the end of the day, just putting them somewhere where they would be safe and not crashing into people and not damaging any of the critical surfaces was part of it.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

So, do you see other approaches where we could be innovative in the city spaces similar to the floating wetlands? Do you have any ideas coming out of ways that we could utilise existing maybe green but not native spaces yet?

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, there's heaps of different, like really cool examples going on. People are starting to look at you know streetscapes. Um, there's some fantastic projects that are looking at how people can better take advantage of nature strips, for example, and even converting nature strips that are essentially concrete back into uh pollinator gardens, like the Melbourne Pollinator Project over the other side of the river. You know, they're trying to, again, that principle of bleeding the edges of our big parks, how can they put stepping stones throughout the landscape so that we're not just relying on three big beautiful parks in Melbourne to support all of our biodiversity? And there are so many little spaces that are not technically for nature on our maps, but they could be, yeah, if we thought about what's the right species in the right spaces, um, and and people really get around it, and that's something that I've been quite excited. It's a change that's happened, I think, in the last 10 or 15 years, where the the balance of people being skeptical about nature in cities has sort of shifted to now they're really excited about it. Um they're starting to demand it because they're like, well, hang on, that council over there has this really fantastic linear park that they've just put in on what used to be a brownfield site, or they've turned an old golf course into a wetland, or you know, even West Cape Park itself used to be an industrial site. I remember visiting it in the early 90s when I was a kid because my dad worked at a factory nearby, and it was just like cuckoo grass as far as the eye could see, hardly any trees or shrubs, um, and now it's like this beautiful destination wetland that people go to to see nature. It's just been completely remarkable. Um, so that change it feels, and I understand it can feel to a lot of people like it's happening too slowly and not enough and too small. But when you stop for a second and look back, um it's pretty amazing what we're starting to see shift.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

I believe the swans are concurring because they're gracing us with the a black swan's gracing us with its presence now.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

So aren't they magnificent?

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

See, that's my next next mission is if we can get the um the swan up in the Guardian's bird of the year pole.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

Uh, anyone if you're voting, make sure that we get this black swan up here.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

I mean, look at them.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

So um when you're talking about uh this population and people, the the scepticism not being there as much. We've got a growing population in Melbourne, perhaps the biggest city, five, six million, whatever, in this greater space that we're in now. How important do you think it is to connect people with these um projects and things that are occurring and any ideas of how we can do it?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, it's super critical for people to be involved, and I think we need to change a little bit the way we talk about engagement and connection with nature as well because we still tend to fall back on citizen science and volunteering as the ways that we measure engagement. And they're fantastic and I love people who do them. Um they're so valuable, just keep doing it. But there are other ways of people engaging and connecting with nature. Um, you know, I love these positive interruptions, I've heard it called, you know, when an animal does just land in your path and make eye contact and just interrupt your day and break you out of this like ruminating mental cycle of what am I going to cook for dinner and when's my next train and oh what do I need to pack in the school, kids' bags, like this beautiful way that nature has of just drawing you out of yourself and reminding you where you're at. And that is a perfectly valid and wonderful way to connect with nature that we can't really measure at the moment. And so something that I'm working on more and more in my projects is if we're going to do something to restore biodiversity in the city, to bring nature back into cities, what are we gonna add to that traditional ecological intervention that also invites people to notice and to connect with it? And so for projects like the floating wetlands, it was a little bit by accident that it happened that way. Um, but because of the enormous, enormous positive response that we've seen from the people that live all around them, it's now it's like, okay, well how, what are other ways that we can do that? Where can we put you know bird baths and perches in the city? Uh, where can we add these um things like the platycam in uh Hamilton? You know, they have this uh live stream of a platypus in the river, and thousands of people log on. I mean the the Falcon Cam, the Collin Street Falcons are nesting at the moment, ridiculous following. Like people are so invested in this drama that's happening 36 stories above us. And these are really wonderful ways for us to show people that nature is all around them and that they have these opportunities to see and engage. They're really accessible ways. You know, people don't have to know anything about the species, they don't have to have an ecology degree, they don't have to be able to go out and you know pull out weeds all day, they just have to enjoy it in their own way. Um and I think that's a really important thing for us to remember that if we want people to care about nature, we have to give them something to care about. And that's more and more what's driving the kind of work that I do.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

And so much you've become the voice of conservation in Melbourne. I I hate to compare you to John Farnum there, but the voice does seem like an accurate description. And by doing that, you've brought so many people along for the journey. Has that been a big intention of yours? You've been really successful in being able to engage people who might not have been engaged before.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, I mean it started at the moment, oh it started at the very beginning, it was a lot of me going like, oh, I always notice this weird bird or this weird bug or you know the case bag moth that's climbing up the wall. Um, hey everybody, look at this. I was that sort of annoying friend. It'd be like, oh, you just see that bird over there. And I don't always know what it is at the time, but um, you know, I've I've really enjoyed noticing nature in our cities the more that I've learnt about it, and then slowly just pointing it out, I realised how much other people really enjoyed that. I mean I did a a little post last year about leaf curling spiders that had appeared in my garden, and so many people were just so excited to learn what they were because it's something that they've kind of seen all the time, but just assumed that it was an old leaf floating in a spider web, and then to learn that this is a spider that has specifically curled this leaf to make itself a beautiful home. Um just yeah, people really are drawn to that, and then I'll that's one of my favourite comments that I get is like now that I've seen you explain what that is, I see them everywhere. Yeah, like I can't stop noticing it everywhere, and it's you know it's like when you buy a new car and then you see that brand of car everywhere, it's just in your um in your headspace, and I think that's something that's been really important to me for nature in the cities. It's great to be adding more and bringing as much back as possible, but the act of pointing out to people what we already have is really important as well, and that takes away some of that lost cause narrative that we tend to apply to urban environments. Um I'm distracted, there's a jellyfish down here. You see the jellyfish too.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

And isn't that what's good about talking around nature too? Because you can have this great discussion and then see this stuff around you and you realise it's all part of what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Um you know, this is a really big hot spot for Rikali, which I have still never seen one in the wild. Um I talk about them all the time, and I've still yet to have one uh grace me with its presence.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Today's the day.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

Yes. Um but you know, we know that they've been on the floating wetlands as well. They were one of the first species to show up before the plants had even been planted. We had all the floating pontoons just here. And then we had a big planting day where the people who designed and managed the floating wetlands had all these you know beautiful native species, and we were shoving them in the little gaps so that their root systems would extend down into the waterway. And as we were out there on the floating wetlands, they were just covered in poo and um like discarded shells of mussels and other bivalves, and like within 24 hours of being there, the Rikali had been using them as their dissecting table, which was it just shows you how important that resource was, and we kind of knew with the floating wetlands that it could go one of two ways. You know, we are putting this natural resource in an area that's quite deprived. So either it will take a while for animals to show up and to make use of it because they have to find it and slowly realize that it's there and that it's something that they can use, or it would happen the other way in that it's such a rare resource that it would immediately become incredibly popular. And that is what we saw with the floating wetlands. Um we had different species of birds nesting on them in the very first season. We had vocali on them immediately. Animals were flocking to them. I would love to know about all of the um the cutie crawlies, all the different invertebrates. There must have been so much activity there that we're missing. And recently the city of Melbourne even put underwater cameras on them because underneath them they're chock full of you know algae and biofilms and you know all of these different uh shells and mollusks and other things under there. So figuring out what's going on underneath is going to be a really next exciting part. But again, you know, this idea that you just make a little tweak and nature responds has been really wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Absolutely, and through this process, I'm interested to know where you started, where was your journey, where are your first memories of connecting with nature?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

I was a really wildlife-obsessed kid. You know, like things like movies like Fern Gully.

SPEAKER_03 18:00

Yeah, that was great, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

And um, if you're a 90s kid, the um the television series Animals of Farthing Wood, which did some very like there's some deep trauma.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

There's some emotional stuff. I think that might have been my first tier.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

But yeah, it's you know, even in the the opening credits to that, it's you know, these animals living in this beautiful natural space, and then someone comes along with concrete and pours it all over, and it's this um, you know, it's a pretty harrowing tale. But you know, those were my my interactions with nature were really superficial and idealistic. You know, I always thought of nature as being out in the wild. Uh, that's why I wanted to become an ecologist so that I could, you know, go to the Amazon and go to the Antarctica and do all this really cool stuff out there. Um, and I got a little bit distracted. Uh I started working at the University of Melbourne and fraternizing with urban ecologists who were doing really cool things on species in Melbourne. They were hanging out with flying foxes and turtles and native orchids, and I started paying more attention to what was around me and realizing that all of the amazing tools that I'd learnt in ecology and conservation could be applied here and there was certainly a need for it. Um and then it also reminded me of you know, I grew up in the northwestern suburbs of Melbourne, there wasn't a lot of nature around. It's changing, but there still isn't. Uh, and so this idea that by doing these things for nature in cities, we're not only you know reinstating nature's rightful place, but we're giving people opportunities to connect with nature every day instead of just some people connecting with it on holiday because they could go to the Great Barrier Reef or they can go to the Daintree, um, just leveling that playing field a bit because it does feel like something that everybody should have access to.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

And as we look behind us, there's some tall apartment buildings and somebody living in one of those. Would you have any suggestions how they could participate in conserving areas around nature or support the actions that are happening?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah, one of the wonderful things that has happened through this project and uh and other Nature in Cities projects is we see how people respond, but the great thing is when they tell their local council that they loved what happened. Because that is really powerful. You know, people, councils in particular, respond respond to people, and positive stories are really useful because they can show not only did I do something that ticked a box in my strategy, but the people loved it. And that's a really powerful thing to be able to say because otherwise you just all the people working in nature conservation in cities are constantly chipping away. Um they lose more often than they win, so being able to celebrate those wins is really helpful. And then the other things are all just small, right? It's you know, planting a pot or having some beautiful vegetation trailing from your balcony when you can, looking after the common spaces when you can't, and just enjoying what's what's there, taking the time to appreciate it. Um but I think that that groundswell of people demanding that their cities do more for them, and it's not just about you know roads, rates, and rubbish anymore. You know, this idea that our places that we live should actually be a little bit nice, maybe, as well, and provide some fundamental ecological and health and well-being services, I think is is growing, and it's it's been really heartening to see. You know, most councils across Melbourne now have biodiversity plans and forest strategies. This is something that is definitely on the agenda, and um any time that I can help people make those visions a reality is really rewarding for me.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

And do you have a vision of Melbourne in the future, from your own perspective, of I mean, as well as the Kingfisher, like are there other things that you're looking for?

SPEAKER_00 22:07

I think something that would be really wonderful to see, and it's only small, is just embracing the idea that sometimes our nature gains might be temporary. So there are a lot of spaces that sit vacant or empty or you know, in a couple of years it's going to be developed, so we won't do anything there. There's so much potential to embrace the fact that cities are really dynamic and change over time. And it's like, okay, you've knocked that building down, there's a big vacant lot, why don't we do a temporary nature activation here? And if you repeat that over and over and over and over again throughout the city, as you watch it over time, you'd see nature pop up here and pop up there, and on the whole, it could just level out, right? Adding something rather than constantly losing, I think, is what I'm trying to get at because so much of nature conservation so far is about preventing loss. In an urban environment, we already have so little that if we're not maximizing every opportunity to add, I think we're gonna I think we're gonna be missing out. We're only ever gonna be sort of holding on to that last little scrap that's left. So being able to embrace different ways of doing things, uh, even if it's not forever, it can suddenly open up people's minds, I think, to like, oh well, even if it doesn't last more than 15 years, I could just do something here, and it would be nice now. Um and then you start getting that cultural change, right? In that people like, well, maybe I'll try something then. It's only small, and maybe I'll try something then. And I think that proliferation of of lots of small actions of of all different shapes and forms across the landscape is going to be the thing that saves us, not one big sweeping rule or one big sweeping project, but just everybody doing a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

And you're uh a leader in this space and someone who people look up to. Who are your mentors or who who were you sort of striving uh towards when you were starting off in this field?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

I'm not actually sure. I mean I had I had the classics, you know, I loved watching David Attenborough documentaries and and all of those, you know, wonderful nature storytellers, but I guess what I found I guess I found myself, as I learned more and as I got more and more passionate about urban nature, I found I found what I saw lacking a bit, particularly in the public domain. Um I wasn't satisfied with only being able to see things in really high definition from far away, um, particularly when that thing was you know being ripped apart by a lion or you know, some horrible dramatic story which you can't help but watch. And you know, they're all incredible. Um so yeah, most of the people that inspire me are just part of the local nature community, you know, the people that they're often they're not even academics, they're not researchers, they're not conservation biologists, they're just people that wanted to make a change in their local environment and did. Um so the Heart Gardening Project is a really great example of that. Um, there's a guy on uh TikTok who started 3D printing frogs houses. Um, and he you know he saw a frog in his yard and he thought it was in a dangerous spot, so he built it a little 3D printed house. And this idea of people seeing nature struggling around them and then going, I can do something about that. I'm gonna take that action. They're the people that that inspire me because they just do it and it's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

Has the have this have they hatched? Yeah, they've got they had five, they've lost one.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Okay, do you know when abouts they yeah, I can tell you the exact day. So I'm the um my name's Kylie Stones, I'm a researcher on the project.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

I've been following them all day with photos every day.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

That's wonderful! Um because I saw the pigeons in it and I was really disappointed.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

So wait, no, that's the day so that was the 19th, and it was the day after. Because I'm watching those ones over there too.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, yeah, there's one on each of them at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, so she's still sitting.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

That's amazing. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

I'm so glad that um 19th. I was okay, the 19th she had her eggs. Yep. And the next time I took photos with so it must have been the 23rd. Oh, because that she had five, and the next day she's only had four. Okay. So so it's a 23rd they hatched.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Oh, that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

Best be honest, I haven't liked a lot of things the council have done, but these are the best things ever. They are so good.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

I will pass it on.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

That thank you so much, I've got it, and that's the other one, so I went and checked her out on the 23rd.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Oh, beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

But yeah, I've got I've pretty much documented everything as as it's gone because I've been watching circular.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Would you mind sharing that? Yep, there we are. Okay, I'll send you on again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Um I refusal one of fan, but we were just recording something, and what you said sounded really good. Do you mind if that were to go on? No, no, that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

I'm a I'm in a nature podcaster for the colour.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah, but what you said sounded great, it kind of fit in with what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

So no, these are fabulous. People from down here were all coming down regularly to see where they are, see if we can see them. That's really wonderful. Last I sighted them, they yesterday, like the day before yesterday, they were already swimming right across the other side. Oh my goodness, like it was so quick, it was just within a week they're out and about and yeah, but last I saw yesterday they had four. No, the day before yesterday they were still four.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Beautiful, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, that's good, so they hatched. Oh, I was worried that the pigeons had usurped them or something, um, or the Ricali got the eggs. Uh that's one of the most common questions uh that we we had was like, oh will the Ricali eat the eggs? I'm like, maybe, but have you ever tried to fight a swan? Like they're pretty they're pretty intense.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Well, I guess that's a great example, isn't it? Like that's exactly what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

I mean that's that's exactly, you know, people that you know they would never sign up for a planting day, or you know, they would never call themselves greenies by any stretch of the imagination, and they're coming here just to see cool stuff, and I think that's something that we need to we need to be open to all these different ways that people can enjoy nature, and the hardest thing about that is that you can't measure it, like you can't put it on a spreadsheet to say that we achieved these things. Um, it's just that fundamental, like the joy and the awe and the wonder, like they're so critical to our well-being in a way that we really don't know how to to tally yet. Um but I think they're the things that pull the heartstrings, right? They're the things that people make decisions about, and you can you can measure things as much as you want and show all of the all of the benefits, but people are gonna make a decision with their gut, and that kind of enthusiasm is is what gets people over the line.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Um it's infectious too, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Like to see people come up and be like, all right, so there were this many swans and they went here and and yeah. And I mean again, like that kind of data, she knows exactly when, um, how many there were, what the survival rate has been, um, in a way that we can't, because we can't be everywhere. Uh so embracing those different ways of connecting, those different types of knowledge, the different types of expertise, conservation needs a broader church, not a narrower one, and that's the way we get it.

SPEAKER_02 30:13

And following on from that, this idea of how much we need to include social media in the storytelling of science and uh not just social media but any types of media to really promote it.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yeah, I the social media thing for me was a bit of a personal challenge. I had never been one to, you know, people like I don't like seeing my face or hearing my voice. I was definitely one of those people. But uh I knew that nobody was really uh talking about it and that my voice in it was important. I was part of this fantastic programme called Superstars of STEM that was encouraging women in science to kind of hold their space and embrace the way that they told stories and to do things that challenged them. And for me, being filmed and on social media was was my challenge. Um but it has led to so many meaningful connections. It's not just about reaching a massive audience but the richness of the conversation and the community that you build around things. You know, I put a call out recently because I wanted to know where a good spot to see Rakali was, because there was a film crew that wanted to do a documentary about them. And I was inundated with like dozens and dozens of people sending me like this lake in Coburg and this stream, you know, behind my apartment block, all of these, and like with amazing footage that they'd just taken on their phone, and they'd be like, I won't sure if it's going to be there, but it was, and here are two Rikali frolicking in this disgusting urban stream. You know, this it brings people together in this really amazing, amazing way, and people are so eager to share back with you. Um, and it allowed me to learn what other people were interested in, you know, what what people want to hear more about, what questions they have about what we're doing, and that really strengthens how you're able to communicate because even the best communicators, it's it's so easy to forget where you came from and what's interesting. You know, I forgot that most people didn't know that fairy wrens changed colour, for example, or that the males were blue and the the females were brown, and so when I dropped that fact as an aside in one of my videos, all the comments are like, wait, what? They're like, I thought that every year all the males just left. I didn't realise they were all just turning brown and then turning back blue. Um, but they're the things that excite other people, you know, the stuff that got you going in in undergrad lectures, and um, you know, when you were pouring over your wildlife books as a little ecology nerd, um those things that excited you are the same things that excite other people, and and that's sort of the starting point for communication, I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

I'm real interested in reintroductions of species and and what role Greater Melbourne can play in that space. I mean, on the south side of things we've seen things like southern brown bandicoots and ground grassrops and things decline in Greater Melbourne. Do you think there's a role in Greater Melbourne for reintroducing these species back to the landscape?

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Absolutely. I mean, reintroducing species into cities is I think one of the most exciting next phases. We're already seeing a huge push for it with uh the pukila in uh cranberne botanic gardens, uh, platypus in Sydney, Adelaide want to reintroduce platypus to the River Torrens. It's going to be this really important, really important tool that we have for bringing nature back. I know there have already been attempts to reintroduce Keys Matchstick Grasshopper in Royal Park, even bringing back locally extinct species like sugar gliders. You know, there are all these huge opportunities because often the threats that cause the species to go locally extinct aren't operating anymore. You know, cities mature over time just without us really trying. But so many people have done so much work to regenerate areas of our cities, to look after our borderways, to clean them up, to plant more trees, that there is much more habitat here now than there was 50 or 100 years ago. So I think there's a lot of really great opportunities. And urban reintroductions are still quite rare. We did a study recently and found that there were only maybe 50 documented worldwide. But again, it's it's a really valuable tool that I think we could apply really carefully, of course, but it could be so great. I mean there's this enormous human population that can help care for these species and be engaged with species in a way that we hadn't really previously considered, and I think we underestimate that. And it's easy to look at the risks, but I think we underestimate the potential positives as well.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

And so part of this project, I have been visiting all these reserves around Greater Melbourne and speaking to lots of people who've been involved. I'd love your perspectives on how important it is to conserve these reserves or create more reserves in the Greater Melbourne system. Any thoughts in a general sense?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Yeah, I mean our existing green spaces are so important, right? Um there are so few of them, um particularly those that contain any kind of remnant ecological value. And I know that you know, ecologically, there's lots of reasons that they're important, but culturally I think as well, um, because there are there are so few places where you can actually connect with the real earth. Like I don't even know where it would be when we're standing. I think we're actually on reclaimed land. Didn't think about that. Um, you know, the Yarra didn't even used to flow here, uh, and this would have all been some kind of beautiful, uh beautiful marshy wetland. So anything that we can do to protect those values that we we can't recreate, um, I think is really important. Building new ecosystems is is a huge, a huge step forward, and I think that's what we need to look at more. Um they're not going to look like the remnant natural ecosystems, and they don't have to be slavishly beholden to uh a pre-European condition or set of goals, but I think that there are enormous opportunities for for more parks and gardens. There's certainly enormous need, and yeah, more is better, right? I have focused more on squeezing green into non-park areas as well. Um I really like again this idea that we can infiltrate the what on a map would be non-habitat. And I think I think we need we need more of both, right? We need more parks and gardens and these these big green strongholds that support people and nature. Um, but that intervening matrix as well needs to be way less hostile. Um, how can we have this biodiversity-friendly uh matrix in between? And and there are just small changes that we can make that suddenly shift a landscape from being you know uninhabitable apart from a few green patches, to like here are the core spaces, and then here is all this lovely supportive habitat in between as well. And there are so many species that can benefit from that approach and survive really well in residential and urban matrixes with us.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

So what are your thoughts around single species management versus broader ecosystem management? Sometimes we have a threatened species that's hanging on in a modified area. Do you think we need to create a balance between how we do that or do you think we need to focus on single species management when we're trying to look after threatened species?

SPEAKER_00 38:11

I think there's there's kind of a few things to pull apart in there and throwing it into the urban mix puts a completely different lens on that, right? Ecosystem approaches in urban environments can do us a disservice because when people see there's not that much of this remnant ecosystem or remnant vegetation class left, then this place has no value. And so often our maps of biodiversity, value, and prioritization look at whether or not there's any intact ecosystem left. And by that measure it's very easy to look at entire metropolitan area and go, well, there's nothing there worth saving. When you then focus on the individual species, you can start to think about, okay, its ecosystem isn't here anymore, or the habitat that we wrote out in our textbooks isn't here anymore. But what are the resources that we can provide to help this species survive in this new ecosystem that we haven't really wrapped our heads around as ecologists yet? You know, what does it need to eat, what does it need to sleep, what are the ways that we can provide that in artificial terms, in novel terms? Is it using introduced plants? Is it using artificial structures? It doesn't technically on paper have an ecosystem here anymore, but it can still be here. That's the tension that I struggle with in the ecosystem versus single species when it comes to an urban environment, because most people would say, you know, we have to stop focusing on single species, we have to look at the system, and that's completely valid. But in an urban environment it can undermine us a bit because often the ecosystem is gone, and that doesn't mean that we can't have huge benefits for individual species.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

And I understand that opportunism is a part of decision making, but how do you go for prioritisation? You've got a wealth of knowledge that stretches all around Greater Melbourne. When you're thinking about creating projects to have the biggest impact, how do you prioritize?

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Where we're at now in urban biodiversity conservation is very much driven by opportunism. So it's where there are people that want to do the thing, have the resources to do the thing, the thing is going to happen. And we we follow the path of leaf resistance and we take that opportunity and we create something great there. Prioritization-wise, you would start to look at where the greatest potential benefits are for people or where the greatest potential needs are for nature, and we haven't got to that point yet. And even if we did, it may just be knowledge that is useful to us down the track rather than now. I think we've got a long way to go before we can really start to strategically guide where nature conservation happens because it is so it's so complex in an urban system and it depends so much on all of the right land managers, all of the community support, having the tools to actually make the change for that species in that space. Kind of everything has to come together. And I think at the moment that's why we we are still seeing this pockets of best practice kind of thing happening. Um but I think there's no place in Melbourne that can't benefit from this approach. So at the moment my motto is just to go with whoever's doing stuff. So you know, if you want to do something, I am there with bells on and we will make it happen. And we just keep doing that and building the grounds well.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

And does that mean you you end up playing a role in development even too? Because when developers are looking to um maximise the biodiversity opportunities out of their builds and so forth?

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Yeah, I've been less involved in new developments. Most of my work has been around retrofitting, so putting putting nature back into already established systems. But um I think those urban renewal and development projects have huge potential and what they're doing now more, which I really like to see, and it's only a change that's happened quite recently. In instead of just looking at where they're going to develop things and where they can do the least damage or what they have to protect and then moving on, they might start with a landscape that has no biodiversity value and then say, okay, what can I do to enhance this? So their responsibility now is not just how do I not do, how do I not make it worse, but what can I do to actively leave this better than I found it. So we're seeing motivation for biodiversity enhancement and nature positive more now, which I think is is really good, particularly in urban environments which can start at you know biodiversity zero. So being able to encourage people to add things has been really great. Because in the past what would happen is you know they might look at a nature prioritization map and say, okay, well, the place that I'm going to develop currently has a value of zero, so I don't have to worry about nature, I can just build as normal. Whereas now they're like, oh, there's nothing here but what was here 20 years ago. What are the things that I could do to actually help make this a positive um positive beacon in the landscape? And they do take that landscape with like, well, there's a park over there, and there's a park over there, we could be a stepping stone in between. And that I think has um has been a really good change because again, otherwise, we're just like preventing loss is great, but then it that it doesn't leave any room for growth, right? We we just sort of stay where we are, and we want more.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

And in your work in the university and and and elsewhere, what encouragement would you give to people who are thinking of getting into that space, of getting into urban conservation? If you're listening to this now and you're thinking, I'd like to get involved, maybe a career, would you have any advice?

SPEAKER_00 44:17

Yeah, it's not as simple as it sounds, but it also is. So the basic things that we need in urban environments are the same as any other environments. You know, species need the resources that they need. They need somewhere to sleep, they need things to drink, they need things to eat. We can make all of those modifications. The complication is when you realize that all of the other functions that that space has to serve. The people that live there, the electricity that needs to get from one building to the other, the transport that needs to go through. All the different land managers of one space mean that something that should be simple is suddenly not. And so my advice then is don't stop when somebody tells you, no, that's too complicated, but ask why, and then solve that problem. Because the the creativity that we need in urban conservation is not around, well, how do we build a new type of habitat? It's around well, how do we build a new type of habitat that also works in this environment? That you know you want to work with land managers and councils and communities to solve the problems that they're having getting nature in. And they're really tricky sometimes, and but then again, sometimes the hardest part is just knowing what's stopping people. Because once we know what's stopping them, we can fix that problem. But that's where most of most of the challenges I've faced and most of the things that kill a really good project are not that it's ecologically impossible, but all of the other you know, social, management, political reasons. So we have to start getting really good at solving those and and listening to land managers. And one really good question I found is to ask, well, what would it take to have that happen here? Because then they start problem solving with you. And you know, these are engineers and urban planners, really highly educated, clever problem solvers that are great at helping you solve problems if they feel like it can happen. So you know, that whole what would it take to make this happen? And suddenly you've got things that you can actually work with and fix instead of just no, which is really hard to argue with. And so that's what I would that's what I would encourage you to do. Don't be disheartened when you hear like no, we can't. Um ask why, because they'll often say no we can't because of this. Solve this. That's the problem that you have to solve. Uh yeah, not how do we get this plant in the ground, but what's the problem to to to solve there.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

So and how big do you think the role for traditional owners will be in urban conservation moving forward?

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Uh enormous. Um hopefully far bigger than it currently is. Um, I mean we haven't been traditionally good at engaging traditional owners in conservation generally, that is changing, thankfully, but urban has been particularly slow in that realm. And so it's been really great to see lots more movement in that space, lots more self-determination. We still have a really long way to go and there are councils that are still sort of unsure how to approach it. There are still crunches on people's time, but I think recognizing cities as cultural landscapes is going to be, it's just an enormous, enormous positive thing to sort of recognise that it doesn't matter how much concrete you put down, those cultural connections for country are still there and they're still important. Um, and we we need to respect that and make as much space for that as possible.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

And can I ask, with your personal connection to nature, are there any species or communities that you um find yourself infatuated with?

SPEAKER_00 48:20

I typically birds that are so big that they shouldn't be able to fly. So anytime I see a pelican or a yellowtailed black cockatoo, I will drop everything to go and see it. Um, you know, the yellowtailed black cockatoos in particular, I don't I saw a dozen um uh flying past me on the train today, and uh I realise it's the season in uh in sort of the surf coast of Victoria where the yellowtailed black cockatoos are coming back into town, so that we don't see them as much over winter, but as it starts to warm up, they start to come back, and then you'll you know hear that piercing pterodactyl pull and run out and um try and see where they are, and then inevitably there'll be someone else on the street doing the same thing. Both they have that secret nod of like, yeah, we heard the cockatoos. Um I don't know what it is about those those species, but you know, there's nothing anything can be going on in my day, and if I see a flock of pelicans or yellow-tailed black cockatoos in the air, um suddenly I'm having a good day again. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Magpie geese are one, I reckon. They look awkward and graceful in equal measure.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Yeah, Cape Barron geese as well. Like they're just um or even like the black swans that are around us at the moment, seeing them in flight is absolutely remarkable. Like it just looks, their necks are so long and you wonder how on earth you can fly with this big pointy long neck, but they just yeah, it's it's really incredible. And they're the kind of species that I think they're the kinds of moments that that really hit home. That's what we're trying to sell to people, is not you know, this many ecosystem services, you know, the cleaner air is great and the pollination is great, and the storm protection is great, and the cooling is great, but you can't replace that feeling you get when you know there's a bird flying along next to you in the car and you make eye contact. Yeah, like it's just when an animal, a wild animal looks at you and sees you and you see it, um you can't you can't fix that with any machine, you can't replace that with anything, and I think that's what makes it such a fundamental driver that we need to be better at tapping into.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

I love that. I do love that, I love that a lot. As far as places to go, if somebody wants to start getting in touch with this stuff or connecting to it, do you have any first points of call, places to check?

SPEAKER_00 50:55

Like to see nature?

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Yeah, like your social media and things.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Oh yes. I am always carrying on about some cool thing that I saw on on social media on the the classic Instagram and and TikTok and places like that. There are so many other environmental creators now as well. It's been this really great way to build a community and um you know see people that are out there enjoying nature. I I love that that place and just it's heartening. What is swimming under there?

SPEAKER_02 51:28

It could be our cali. It could be our cali.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Come up, you bust. Yeah, I would just encourage people to check things out on social media. They're local, you'll be surprised how many local friends of groups there are for every park, every creek. I'm surprised there's not yet a friend of the floating wetlands that has self-established, but it will probably happen any day now. Join up online, find yeah, and I think the wonderful thing about noticing urban nature is that once you once you kind of put it out there, you'd be surprised how many other people are noticing the same things as you. And that's how you know we we build that community, we build those connections, and then we can all work together on something and be that little bit more powerful. Like uh birds in backyard, yeah, great Aussie bird count's coming up. And you know, this I'm a fairly seasoned nature noticer, but that idea of sitting still for 20 minutes and watching, that completely opened my eyes to some of the different behaviours of really common urban birds. Like a red waddle bird has so many different calls that I just didn't realise it was one bird making all of those sounds in the gum tree out the front of my house. Um it's probably why I haven't seen a Ricali yet, is because I very rarely, like sitting still.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Yeah, yeah, I'm the same, I'm always moving.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Um so yeah, I think I think there's so much, so much to see and so much to learn. Um I think my favourite study, I was rereading it recently, was uh during lockdown, three guys in a Brisbane share house counted every species on their property for one whole year. And it was just a standard three-bedroom house. Yeah. And they recorded something like 1,100 species. Wow. Um, just on a three-bedroom house with a normal garden, a couple of Ks from the CBD. And they had 1,100 species in their house, and all of Brisbane in the Atlas of Living Australia recorded something like 2,700 species. And their point was like, well, this shows how much we don't know about what's in our urban environments because we aren't measuring them and we aren't recording them, and we aren't just reporting the random things that we see. We we don't really have even a good baseline of what's here. Um they said they recorded three species that weren't even in the Atlas of Living Australia book. Like that's incredible. And the this idea that we're just we're missing it, and some of it's probably disappearing and could use a bit of help, but we're we're missing it, we're not writing it down. So I would love to have like just a much better national understanding of of what lives in cities, why it's important and how we can help it. And um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

And you mentioned the Atlas of Living Australia. Are you a field guide, iNaturalist, Atlas of Living Australia? Are you a bit of everything?

SPEAKER_00 54:32

A bit of everything, yeah, a bit of everything, and then very enthusiastically in short bursts, and then I forget and then I don't do it. Um you know there are some people that have incredible, incredible dedication um to iNaturalist. And I fall into the trap of only doing it if it's something.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

I'm the same, exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

If it's something I saw a kingfisher on the power line out the front of my house, and I pulled over the car immediately to report it, and I'm like, they're not gonna believe me. Um, yeah, those kinds of sightings, and I should, I should be everything that I see because again, it's too easy for a decision maker who's far removed from everything to look at a map and go, well, there's nothing there. Yeah. Um we need to show people that there's there's stuff here because again, just that that power of noticing and changing the lens that people look at cities through changes what people are willing to do, and I think that's really that's been really powerful. And the the floating wetlands is a great example. Again, the species that we are seeing use this structure are species that live in this landscape already. Um we haven't attracted any magical new species, but people are noticing them in a way that they haven't before, because to see a cormorant basking in the sun on top of a litter trap is one thing, but to see it on this beautiful piece of green infrastructure that was built for it, people are like, wow, there's nature there. So I think we can't underestimate the importance of just helping people see, because for decades, centuries probably even, we've we've had this narrative that cities the opposite to nature. Um it's gonna take some work to undo that, but it's work that I'm willing to do.

SPEAKER_02 56:17

I'm glad you're around to do it. Um could we explain if um you've never seen a floating wetland? How do you describe it?

SPEAKER_00 56:27

It's well, someone very unkindly on Instagram called it a just a floating junk raft of grass. But that is uh one negative comment out of thousands. So it's basically a floating uh pontoon and it has all different types of plants uh planted in it. So they are plants whose root systems actually often extend down into the water column below, so there'll be uh wetland plants, marshland plants, water plants, and then there are some deeper sections of soil on it that can support different types of flowering plants and shrubs. And then what we've added to the floating structures are some habitat elements. So around the edge it has a banister, which is for things like your cormorants and your darters to perch on and dry their wings. It has a smaller perch that's supposed to resemble a branch so that perching birds can grasp around it. It also has a little pool in the centre of it that's like a sheltered water body, not part of the main giant river. And that's again just to give that little bit of refuge from the busyness. Uh, and then we have some open basking spaces on it as well, and uh, and then it has all these little ramps to make sure that animals can get up from the water onto the structure and and back again. And uh yeah, they each each one of them has different vegetation communities that have been trialled to see which ones are surviving. Uh, the Birarung River here has all different types of salinity and tides and exposure to sun, so it was a really good uh way for us to trial all different types of uh plant systems. But yeah, it's basically a floating garden for wildlife. And the really fantastic thing is that trials of these structures have been done in places like uh Chicago and Baltimore and London, and they've expanded them to be um entire like kilometres-longs. That was gonna be my next habitats, right? So these ones are floating uh a little bit away from the shore as part of our trial, but there's absolutely potential um they have been fixed to existing seawalls that extend, you know, kilometres long and become sort of this extended riparian zone, right? Um some of them have walking paths on them and seating as well, so like they're quite buoyant or they can be made to be as buoyant as as they need to be, and suddenly have this whole new area of green space that people can actually access as well. The the new one that they've got in Baltimore is actually part of the, oh a dragonfly. It's part of the aquarium exhibit, and it has like multiple levels and water pumped through and flowing sections and a little waterfall. Like it's it's really uh really incredible and they're trying to sort of teach people about uh hydrology and it's a really great educational tool. So they can look however we need, they can be designed to suit any kind of system and support different plants, and I think that's what we're going to see in future is lots of different styles. You know, there might be some that are just for wildlife habitat and some that are more for people to walk along, and they can have different kinds of gardens and different kinds of flowering plants, but that diversity of different um ecosystems is something that's I think really amazing about urban environments. You have so many different plants and animals coming together, it's a lot of opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

So it's another corridor forming connection thing too, because in future you could be island hoppers.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:19

Yeah, island hopping and to to make it easier for like we've made rivers in cities very difficult to traverse. We've made them very wide, we've made them very busy, and uh the water flows uh often quite strong and really tidal. So, you know, having these little stepping stone points can help uh species navigate a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

It's amazing. Well, I'm excited for the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah, me too, me too. It's like it's very easy to be overwhelmed by the monumentality of urban as a as a concept, but if you just take it one piece at a time, um things become a lot more manageable. And then when you look at your one piece compared to someone else's one piece and someone else's one piece, and you realise that there are actually thousands of these actions happening all over the city, it feels a lot less futile and full of hope.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

Natural momentum, like you we're talking about this floating wetland, and we've had someone walk past and comment on it, and they've got a connection to that wetland already, and I'm sure the introducing the idea of more of them would be well founded with all the comments and things you're getting.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Oh, absolutely, and I think the other thing that's been really great about this project, and and it was part of the strategy in the first place, was to be really public, both with the story of the trial, like the city of Melbourne are really focused on sharing with the community that this is a trial. We've never done this before, but here are the things that we've put in place to learn about what we're doing. You know, they're really really transparent with that information, trying to bring people along with this idea that we can try something that we've never tried before. Maybe it won't work, but here are all of the you know really clear logical steps that we thought about before we did it, and here's what we're going to learn after we did it. And that's a really, really powerful part of the storytelling. But then the other end of that is that other councils see this project and they see how well it's gone and they go, okay, well let's let's do that for we have an urban waterway, why can't we have a floating wetland? Or their communities go to them and say, why don't we? The amount of people that tag me or tag Brisbane Council, they're like, why don't we have this in our I'm like, I'm sorry, Brisbane Council. Um but there are uh so Northern Rivers Council have just uh done their own trial as well. So we are seeing this build, and I think that kind of um that kind of leadership and people people going okay, let's let's follow, let's let's try that here, let's make it our own, I think is is really fantastic. Can't ask for more really.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

No, definitely not just a kingfisher.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Just a kingfisher. Ah, so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Kingfisher or a Ricali, but do you think we need to have flagship species or keystone species that we sort of promote to Melbourne?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I think that's really useful. Um I think there's a lot to be said for people having like pride in their local species as well. Um you know we we love having mascots, we love having things that we connect to. Um I know the city of Melbourne at the moment is looking at having a floral emblem, like a native floral emblem, to sort of again showcase just how awesome Australian native plants are, but how you could have one that kind of represents the cultural identity of a city in a native flower, I think is a really fantastic idea. Um but I also like letting people get behind, you know, go with their gut and get behind what they want to get behind. You know, I love when there's just a random fan club for cuttlefish or there's a few underdogs, isn't there? Yeah, and you know the the recent um Australia's most underrated animal vote was a really great example of that, you know, people just screaming for the velvet worm, I thought was fantastic. But the Rakali, of course, won because they are incredible. Yes. Um but yeah, this this idea that cities could embrace native um native flagship species or native mascots, I think is is really important because people need something tangible to get behind somewhere. If you say, oh, there's this many threatened species in in your city, or you know, there's lots of biodiversity that can feel like a really hard thing to wrap your head around. Biodiversity feels like a metric rather than a an important day-to-day feeling, and then you see a seagull fly past and someone's gonna correct me and be like, actually it's a silver gull, and I know, I know. Um and people think, well, I don't I don't care that much about the silver gull, but if you sort of show people what what biodiversity means in the way that conservation and ecology people understand it, and it's just this like the magnificence of all of the diversity and the colour and these intricate behaviours and just weird little quirks that love of nature is what we're really trying to to show people that they can have here in their own backyards and and neighbourhoods.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

Now I'm picturing on the side of these buildings a big Caladinia or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

Something just bring it something to bring it home. Yeah, people love a spider all the time. And it's the season as well, yeah. Everyone's um everyone's, oh I saw this cool thing, what is it? But um yeah, I think there's I think there's hex of potential here.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

That was the incredible Dr. Kylie Soones. Keep up to date with all the things she's doing on her social media. There's loads and loads to learn from all the things that she's putting out there. Also, I hope you've enjoyed Finding Melbourne's Nature. If you'd like to find out more about this project, check out FindingMelboyn'sNature.com or you can check us out on social media. You can find more of these episodes on your favourite streaming apps. And thanks so much for listening.